Author Topic: Re: About Freedom in the Free World  (Read 6444 times)

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sol black

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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2007, 12:14:26 PM »
I'll agree with HD's perspective.  It may be a right we had at its creation for a much more direct use, but now it is a right that shines light on those needed virtues.  And still, for some, owning a gun may even save their lives.  

Being more desicive about who can purchase a gun is also a needed element.

I might base it on schooling ( private gun schooling... It should be a somewhat difficult, long class, and should also judge peoples basic social desicion making and perhaps their IQ and EQ), criminal history, and mental history.  

That may seem limiting to some people and will never happen, but it would maintain that mostly intellegent, non-violent, stable people could get a gun, with exception to the few people the system missed, which is inevitable.  It would give owning a gun a little more prestige and respect.  It also would weed out people in poverty who are more likely to commit crimes with guns, because it would drastically lower the sales of guns and therefore guns stores would close and gun prices would go way up.  Which is what I think the main goal should be....  raise gun prices so significantly that they are not so readily available and are not commonly purchased.  

In a society when owning a gun gave you honest and real power this may have presented a problem, but now a gun is used for recreation, protection, and crime.... mostly crime.  

thats idea #1.... seems the easiest but with possible negative consequences....  upper middle class and rich people owning all the guns... poorer people will figure something else out to do.

#2  short, sweet, by far much harder to accomplish, and I think the best answer.... on top of some more strict rules of getting a gun.... reduce poverty.

Bramage

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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2007, 01:06:32 PM »
Sol that is the problem with current liberal thinking on Guns. Who and who cannot have a gun.
 
Some are easy -
Mentally unstable person - Similar to the killer at VaTech.
Some Felons though right now if you are a Felon you dont get a gun. - Someone who is known to have no problem killing another person does not need a gun. That can be taken 2 ways.
Non-Citizens though an 1800's supreme court ruling stated that Legal Immigrants can own guns.
 
IQ, and EQ - Economic Quotient?
 
Come on there are some very backwoods people in this country that can easily distinguish right and wrong and can be trusted with weapons.
 
Social and Economic criteria will leave guns in the hands of the elite legally and those that are poor will illegally obtain guns.
 
Not knowing Whakka as an example even though he is a felon he seems to be level headed and on a superficial knowledge of him I cannot see why he shouldnt be able to get a gun. The law doesnt agree with me on that one though.
 
Just like Voting someone should not be denied simply because they do  not have the academics of others.
 
Your last three paragraphs ... I just can't seem to understand what you are getting at.
 
In Jefferson's Memoirs which I first became aware of at the Massachusetts Grand Lodge (Masonic) He stated that the primary reason for the 2nd Amendment was not personal protection, not defense of our country but so that the average citizen could rise up and stop a Government turned harmful to the american people.
 
I saw this tagline and loved it on a 2nd Amendment Board
 
The 2nd Amendment - United States Government Reset Button.
 
We need to have weapons in the hands of the people or we will lose all our rights. We need to be able to rise up and stop our government should something extreme like Bush activating that Directive and becoming a Dictator happens. George the 1st would also be a puppet prince he doesn't have the brains to do it himself.
Bramage
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whakka

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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2007, 02:35:37 PM »
the second amendment is the protector of all the other amendments.

i should at least be able to have a full length shotgun in my home for home security, i wouldnt even fight to own a handgun, a hunting rifle, or an assault rifle. my offense was non-violent, and it happened 14 years ago, i did my time, paid my debt to society and the person that i stole from. i was 17 years old and made a mistake. i think that some people make mistakes, and should have a second chance at the second amendment as long as their offense wasnt violent in nature, and they served their time, and never went back. but thats another arguement. the funny thing is that i can vote.

sol black

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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2007, 04:50:02 PM »
Well bram, may I call you bram?... I don't want to agrue with you, because I like that point of view, but i must refute that to a degree.  In protecting my country I would fight my government.

The realist inside me says we are passed that type of action in changing our government....  with 300 million people you just don't get a few thousand and storm the whitehouse with shotguns and automatic weapons.  

Now we do need large amounts of citizens with guns and even the ability to supply guns to unarmed citizens... I do indeed like that and agree its needed.  However, a more likely change in our government will occur through economy and/or politics.  Despite the next possible civil war,  the more important and more realistic problem is crime and violence.

Now I stand by my point of view on strict gun control, and I agree we should have guns.  We also should not put fanciful ideas of a massive war of hundreds of millions of people within a country such as this above the importance of what is a terrible problem right at this very moment.  With credit to and no offense to our ancestors idea's,  it seems that they have provided us a way to solve our problems with our government without an American armigeddon.

:|SC|: mOnKeY

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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2007, 05:02:34 PM »
Ok. Sorry Bram looks like you will just have back to back of similar posts since I moved your other one to here too :).

Bramage

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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2007, 05:31:21 PM »
Bram is fine... never bothered me... Biggie is the only who seems to want to change the spelling from BrAmage to BrImage.
 
Last statistic I think I saw was that there was 100,000,000 legal people with guns and a large percentage was ex-military that know what they are doing.
Also with all those Gun Nuts out there I am sure there are plenty of extra guns hanging around for them to pass out.
 
The problem is it seems we have no real leaders let alone real choices anymore in the elections. Democrats have been just as bad the last 6 months as the Republicans before them in caring about Citizens. Armed revolt might just be our only recourse now to fix what is wrong with the United States.
 
 
 
I forgot the statistic and I have been chasing the citation for it but something like 75% of the Military has said in a poll they would not fire on US Citizens.
 
The one Gun Control law I could get behind is a mandatory training class for minimum 2 weeks of 1 hour a day classes. These classes would have teachers and support for people who were less than reasonably intelligent.
 
This would ensure even the most ignorant backwoods person would be able to handle a gun properly and understand gun safety. It would also with trained people teaching the class allow for someone who was like say the VaTech killer to be noticed and flag them for follow up investigation.

Sunfire

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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2007, 05:37:20 PM »
Since you lashed out at me bramage...I never said people shouldn't be able to own guns. I've just known one too many instances where someone has been accidentally shot by a gun, or people carelessly leave them around the house. The fact that my friend went out and bought a fully automatic rifle (whatever the chinese equivalent of an AK47 is) is sick. He walked in, showed him his id, and walked out with that within 10 minutes. What's to stop criminals from buying automatic weapons and running the streets? I'd like to see the crime cleaned up in our cities at home before we go off starting wars with others first. I don't view that as strictly liberal thinking; it's just a fact that we have virtually no gun control. I mean people wonder why we have so much crime in the united states and have campus shootings over and over again, so how do these people get weapons?

Bramage

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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2007, 05:48:49 PM »
Sunfire what is to stop criminals from going to a back alley and buying a stolen or just plain illegal gun in the first place?
 
Why would a criminal even bother with getting Firearms ID.
 
I was reading on the UK in the last 6 months that they have a "Knife Culture". In the UK it is almost impossible for someone to obtain a permit let alone a gun. So what happens.. the criminals now get knives. If you know what you are doing you can use a steak knife effectively to kill or hurt someone.
 
Education NOT banning or disallowing people to own guns.
 
If even one teacher or student had a gun on the VaTech campus and was in the area of the killer they could have saved many.
 
The FACT is that gun control laws do nothing but HARM honest citizens. A criminal will find ANY way they can to get a gun no matter what laws there are in place.
 
In every state that the Castle Doctrine has passed there has been an obvious and almost instant dip in violent crime.
 
Come on up to Michigan we can take a walk down to Detroit and I bet I can buy a "Saturday Night Special" for as little as $25. Guess what the gun WONT be legal. It wont need a waiting period it MIGHT be a stolen gun but more often than not it will be totally off the books.
 
Ohh and Sunfire I resent the implication that I "Lashed" out at you. I made 2 statements in regards to what you said. There was no animosity in those statements.

whakka

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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2007, 05:51:02 PM »
i think that that would be conservative thinking. anyways the problem is that not enough people carry weapons to protect themselves. the more criminals that got shot and died from deadly force from a victim, the more criminals would start thinking twice about fucking up in the first place. or the more would just be dead.

Sunfire

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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2007, 06:10:49 PM »
1)Like I said, better law enforcement in the first place. We should clean up our own problems in the first place rather than starting illegitimate wars. If we had stricter gun control laws it would make it harder for criminals to obtain firearms. Do you think having no gun control laws would make the situation ANY better?

2)a knife culture. Well that's a shitload better than criminals having guns, now isn't it?

3) I never said people should be banned from not owning firearms. Don't put words into my mouth.

4) More firearms produce more violence. I highly doubt a student would risk his life against a crazed madman on a shooting spree has massacred 30 people already. Guns on college campuses is an awful idea.

5) I don't need to be lectured about michigan. Spending plenty of time in Dallas (#2 murder capital of the U.S. St. Louis is #1) Several people have been shot a street away from me and my cars has been stolen multiple times. I'm fully aware people own guns illegitimately but stricter gun control and law enforcement would help prevent that. If not stricter gun control laws, then at least cap the limit of firearms produced by manufacturers each year. I certainly don't want more gun wars occurring in our streets because nobody cares.

Bramage

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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2007, 07:15:19 PM »
Starting with #5
Found this will follow with link but it is from 2002.
“St. Louis last ranked as the Most Dangerous City in 2002,” said Morgan. “While the city clearly struggles with crime, there is some good news: St. Louis’ property crime rate has fallen 14 percent since 2001.”
Trailing St. Louis on the more dangerous end of the crime rankings (in ascending order) are Detroit MI, Flint MI, Compton CA and Camden NJ.
 
http://www.morganquitno.com/safecity.htm
 
Don't see Dallas there it isnt even in the top 25.
 
http://www.morganquitno.com/cit07pop.htm#25
 
Note that the Top 25 is OVERALL. Dallas is only in the top 10 when you make the list 500,000 or more in population.
 
I found this interesting just looking at Detroit and Inkster
Inkster has a population of about 30,000 and had 14 murders which is 43 per 100,000
Detroit has a population of about 870,000 and had 354 muders which is 38 per 100,000.
I thought it funny that a town with less than 1/10th of Detroit had a higher per capita murder rate.
 
Dallas btw had 202 murders which is only 17 per 100,000.
 
This information can be found on
 
http://www.city-data.com/
 
Still on number #5 the University of Illinois about 2-3 years ago or so did a study and proved statistically that those places with the least restrive gun control laws were the places that had the lowest incidents of violent crime.
 
TEXAS 10 years or so ago made it fairly easy to buy and carry concealed. I remember reading in the papers that Violent Crimes DROPPED sharply and until the last 2 years had been receding.
 
Finally found the new page for what I was looking for.
 
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm
 
Note the SHARP drop in murders in 1995 over 1994. Late 1994 was when Texas really made it easy to get guns legally.
 
 
I know I am jumping around
 
#3 - I never said you said banning was needed. The whole post was not directed at you personally. Note the comment on banning is a couple paragraphs down.
 
#1 - 1/2 we only need to enforce existing laws. How many laws would the VaTech killer be charged with? I think it was about 8-10 different laws. Why do we need more laws when we have that many already that were violated in that one crime. We agree on the enforcement part at least.
 
There are over 20,000 gun control laws on the books in the US. How many more do we need if these are not enough?
 
#2 I assume your statement is sarcasm and ignores the issue I put forth about the UK. In England since they have BANNED guns they now have a problem with Criminals using other weapons, specifically Knives. Since you need it spelled out - Take away the guns and criminals will find something else like knives. Take away the Knives and they will probably use rocks.
 
#4 Please site statistics.
 
Here are mine
 
The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.
 
 
I like this website myself.
 
http://www.2asisters.org/education/ninemyths.htm
 
Here is another good page
 
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st176/
 
This one has sources for some statements so I do not have to reproduce all of them
 
http://www.tincher.to/myths.htm
 
Monkey seems to like Sowell...
 
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell112702.asp
 
I just dont want to cut and paste.

sol black

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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2007, 08:14:52 PM »
ok well...I still like the idea of harder classes and stricter allowence on purchasing, dont you bram?  At least have a solid well earned license before you grab a gun and mug someone I say.  Most importantly, reducing extreme poverty and improving education in our country will greatly reduce violent crimes.

Anti

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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2007, 08:23:58 PM »
how about mandated gun safety lessons when you buy a gun. there's thousands of accidental shootings a year because most people are simply to stupid to own one.

Bramage

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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2007, 09:03:29 PM »
I sort of said Mandated Classes when you get a Permit. Though maybe add a refressher once every X years.
 
One of the biggest reasons in the last 2 years for the rise in Violent Crime is the economy. More people out of work more people desperate and willing do to whatever they can to either feed themselves or family... or drugs.
 
Another thread but comment anyways.
I get the feeling that our public education system which 40 years ago was the best in the world has been allowed to suffer possibly due to those in power realizing that the more ignorant their constiuency is the more likely they can be talked into anything.

:|SC|: mOnKeY

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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2007, 10:51:16 PM »
Public education would probably be a good topic to start up.

Just my feelings on the matter. I don't see how gun-free zones would be more safe for one. Secondly even if you restricted the supply side of guns their would still be a high demand. Just as abortion and other issues have become much worse off when you restricted them by law, so would handling of guns. Their will still be a market for it, but much less out in the open.



 

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